Tucker Carlson: Mr. President, thank you very much.
On February 22, 2022, when the conflict in Ukraine began, you addressed your country in your national address and said that you acted because you had concluded that the United States, through NATO, could launch a “surprise attack on our country” . And to American ears, that sounds paranoid. Tell us why you think the United States could attack Russia out of nowhere. How did you come up with this idea?
Vladimir Putin: It’s not like the United States is launching a surprise attack on Russia, I didn’t say that. Are we having a talk show or a serious discussion?
Tucker Carlson: That was a good quote. Thank you, it is very serious!
Vladimir Putin: As far as I know, you were originally trained in history?
Tucker Carlson: Yeah.
Vladimir Putin: So, if you don’t mind, I’ll take just 30 seconds or a minute of your time to give you a little background.
Tucker Carlson: Please.
Vladimir Putin: Let’s see where our relationship with Ukraine started. Where does Ukraine come from?
The Russian state began to exist as a unified state in 862. This year is considered the founding year of the Russian state, as this year the citizens of Novgorod (a city in the northwest of the country) invited Rurik, a Varangian prince from Scandinavia, to rule . In 1862, Russia celebrated the 1000th anniversary of its statehood, and in Novgorod there is a monument dedicated to the country’s 1000th anniversary.
In 882, Rurik’s successor, Prince Oleg, came to Kiev, who actually played the role of regent for Rurik’s young son, since Rurik had already died at that time. He banished two brothers who had apparently once belonged to Rurik’s troupe. Thus, Russia began to develop with two centers of power: Kiev and Novgorod.
The next, very important date in the history of Russia was the year 988. This was the baptism of Russia when Prince Vladimir, great-grandson of Rurik, baptized Russia and embraced Orthodoxy or Eastern Christianity. From that point on, the centralized Russian state began to strengthen. Why? Based on a single territory, integrated economic relations, one and the same language and, after the baptism of Russia, the same loyalty and rule of the prince. The centralized Russian state began to take shape.
Already in the Middle Ages, Prince Yaroslav the Wise introduced succession to the throne, but after his death it became complicated for various reasons. The throne did not pass directly from father to eldest son, but from the late prince to his brother and then to his sons in various lines. All this led to the fragmentation and end of Russia as a single state. There was nothing special about it, the same thing was happening in Europe at that time. But the fragmented Russian state became easy prey for the empire previously built by Genghis Khan. His successors, namely Batu Khan, came to Russia, plundered and destroyed almost all the cities. The southern part, including, incidentally, Kiev and some other cities, simply lost its independence, while the northern cities retained part of their sovereignty. They had to pay tribute to the Horde, but managed to retain some of their rule. And then a united Russian state began to emerge with its center in Moscow.
The southern part of Russian lands, including Kiev, gradually began to turn into another “magnet” – the center that arose in Europe. This was the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. It was even called the Lithuanian-Russian Duchy because Russians made up a significant part of its population. They spoke the Old Russian language and were Orthodox. But then there was a unification, the unification of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the Kingdom of Poland. A few years later, another union was signed, but this time already in the religious sector. Some of the orthodox priests came under the control of the Pope. As a result, these lands became part of the Polish-Lithuanian state.
For decades, the Poles participated in the “polonization” of this part of the population: they introduced their language there, trying to establish the idea that this population was not necessarily Russian, but because they lived on the fringes (u kraya) they were “Ukrainian”. Originally, the word “Ukrainian” meant that a person lived on the edge of the state, near the edge, or worked in a border service. This did not refer to any particular ethnic group.
Thus, the Poles tried in every possible way to Polenize this part of the Russian land and, in fact, they dealt with it quite harshly, not to say harshly. All this led to the fact that this part of the Russian lands began to fight for its rights. They wrote letters to Warsaw demanding that their rights be respected and that people be sent here, including to Kiev.
Tucker Carlson: Excuse me, can you tell us what time… Am I losing track of where we are in history?
Vladimir Putin: It was in the 13th century.
Now I will tell later what happened and give the dates so there is no confusion. And in 1654, a little earlier, the people who held sway in this part of the Russian lands turned to Warsaw, I repeat, with the demand that their rights be respected and that rulers of Russian origin and Orthodox faith be sent to them. When Warsaw did not answer them and even rejected their requests, they turned to Moscow, whereupon Moscow took them away.
Lest you think I am making things up, I am giving you these documents…
Tucker Carlson: It doesn’t sound like you made it up, but I’m not sure why it’s relevant to what happened two years ago.
Vladimir Putin: Nevertheless, these are documents from the archives, copies. Here are letters from Bogdan Khmelnitsky, the man who then controlled power in that part of the Russian lands, which is now called Ukraine. He wrote to Warsaw demanding that their rights be respected, and when this was refused, he began writing letters to Moscow demanding that they be placed under the strong hand of the Muscovite Czar. There are copies of these documents. I will leave them for your good memory. There is a Russian translation, you can translate it to English later.
Russia would not agree to immediate admission, assuming that war with Poland would break out. Nevertheless, in 1654, the All-Russian Assembly of the highest clergy and landowners, headed by the Tsar (Zemsky Sobor), which was the representative body of power of the old Russian state, decided to incorporate part of the old Russian lands into the Moscow Kingdom .
As expected, the war with Poland began. It lasted 13 years, then an armistice was concluded in 1654. And 32 years later, I believe, a peace treaty was signed with Poland, which they called “perpetual peace.” And these countries, the entire left bank of the Dnieper, including Kiev, went to Russia, and the entire right bank of the Dnieper remained in Poland.
Under the reign of Catherine the Great, Russia regained all of its historical lands, including the south and west. All this lasted until the revolution. Before the First World War, the Austrian General Staff relied on the ideas of Ukrainization and began to actively promote the ideas of Ukraine and Ukrainization. Her motive was obvious. Just before the First World War, they wanted to weaken the potential enemy and ensure favorable conditions in the border area. Thus, the Austrian General Staff began to spread the idea that had arisen in Poland that the people living there were supposedly not real Russians, but belonged to a special ethnic group, the Ukrainians.
As early as the 19th century, theorists calling for Ukrainian independence began to appear. However, all of them claimed that Ukraine should have a very good relationship with Russia. They insisted. After the revolution of 1917, the Bolsheviks tried to restore statehood and civil war began, including hostilities with Poland. In 1921, peace was declared with Poland, and as part of this treaty, the right bank of the Dnieper was once again returned to Poland.
In 1939, after Poland collaborated with Hitler – indeed collaborated with Hitler – Hitler offered Poland peace and a treaty of friendship and alliance (we have all relevant documents on file) and demanded something back from Poland in Germany in return for the so-called Danzig Corridor, which connected most of Germany with East Prussia and Königsberg. After the First World War, this territory was transferred to Poland and the city of Gdańsk was created instead of Gdańsk. Hitler asked them to give it amicably, but they refused. Nevertheless, they cooperated with Hitler and participated together in the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia.
Tucker Carlson: Let me ask… They argue that Ukraine, some parts of Ukraine, eastern Ukraine, has actually been Russia for hundreds of years. Why not accept that when you became president 24 years ago? They have nuclear weapons, they don’t. It is actually your country. Why did you wait so long?
Vladimir Putin: I will tell you. I’ll get to that. This update is coming to an end. It might be boring, but it explains a lot.
Tucker Carlson: It’s not boring.
Vladimir Putin: Fine. Good. I’m so glad you appreciate this. Thanks.
Thus, before World War II, Poland cooperated with Hitler and, although it did not give in to Hitler’s demands, participated with Hitler in the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia. Since the Poles had not ceded the Danzig Corridor to Germany and were going too far, they encouraged Hitler to start World War II by attacking them. Why did the war against Poland start on September 1, 1939? Poland proved intransigent and Hitler had no choice but to start implementing his plans with Poland.
By the way, the USSR – I have read some archival documents – behaved very honestly. They asked Poland for permission to allow its troops to pass through Polish territory to aid Czechoslovakia. But the Polish foreign minister at the time said that if Soviet planes flew over Poland, they would be shot down over Polish territory. But that doesn’t matter. Mainly, the war started and Poland became a victim of the policy it had pursued towards Czechoslovakia, since according to the famous Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, part of this territory, including western Ukraine, was to be handed over to Russia. Thus, Russia, which was then called the USSR, regained its historical territories.
After the victory in the Great Patriotic War, as we call the Second World War, all these lands were finally recognized as the property of Russia, the USSR. As for Poland, he received, apparently as compensation, the lands that were originally German: the eastern parts of Germany (these are now the western lands of Poland). Of course, Poland regained access to the Baltic Sea and Gdansk, which regained its Polish name. This is how this situation developed.
In 1922, when the USSR was founded, the Bolsheviks began to build the USSR and created Soviet Ukraine, which had never existed before.
Tucker Carlson: Right.
Vladimir Putin: Stalin insisted that these republics should be incorporated into the USSR as autonomous entities. For some inexplicable reason, Lenin, the founder of the Soviet state, insisted that they had the right to withdraw from the USSR. Again, for unknown reasons, he transferred some lands to the newly founded Ukrainian Soviet Republic along with the people living there, although these lands had never been called Ukraine. and yet they became part of the Ukrainian Soviet Republic. Among these areas was the Black Sea region, which was preserved under Catherine the Great and had no historical connection with Ukraine.
Even if we go back to 1654, when these lands returned to the Russian Empire, this area was the size of three to four regions of modern Ukraine, not including a region of the Black Sea. This was ruled out.
Tucker Carlson: In 1654?
Vladimir Putin: Yes.
Tucker Carlson: You have, I see, an encyclopedic knowledge of this area. But why, in the first 22 years of your presidency, did you not argue that Ukraine was not a real country?
Vladimir Putin: Soviet Ukraine was given large tracts of land that never belonged to it, including the Black Sea region. At some point, when Russia received them as a result of the Russo-Turkish wars, they were called “Novorossiya” or Novorossiya. But that doesn’t matter. Basically, Lenin, the founder of the Soviet state, founded Ukraine this way. For decades, the Ukrainian Soviet Republic developed as part of the USSR, and for unknown reasons, the Bolsheviks again engaged in Ukrainization. This was not only because the Soviet leadership was largely composed of people who came from Ukraine. Rather, it was explained by the general indigenization policy of the Soviet Union. Something similar happened in other Soviet republics. The aim was to promote national languages and national cultures, which is not bad in principle. This is how Soviet Ukraine was created.
After the Second World War, in addition to the territories belonging to Poland before the war, Ukraine received part of the territories previously belonging to Hungary and Romania (now Western Ukraine). So part of their land was taken from Romania and Hungary and given to Ukraine, and they still remain part of Ukraine. In this sense, we have every reason to believe that Ukraine is an artificial state formed according to Stalin’s will.
Tucker Carlson: Do you think Hungary has the right to take back its land from Ukraine? And that other nations have the right to return to their 1654 borders?
Vladimir Putin: I’m not sure if they should go back to the 1654 borders, but given the Stalin era, the so-called Stalinist regime – which, many claim, saw numerous human rights violations and violations of the rights of other states – could for anyone to say that they could claim their country when they would have no right to do so is at least understandable…
Tucker Carlson: Did you tell Viktor Orban he could have part of Ukraine?
Vladimir Putin: Never. I never told him. Not once. We haven’t even talked about it yet, but I know for sure that the Hungarians living there wanted to return to their historic country.
In addition, I want to share with you a very interesting story, I digress, it is a personal story. Sometime in the early 1980s, I took a road trip by car from then-Leningrad (now St. Petersburg) through the Soviet Union via Kiev, stopped in Kiev, and then drove to western Ukraine. I went to the town of Beregovoye, and all the names of the towns and villages there were in Russian and in a language I did not understand – Hungarian. In Russian and Hungarian. Not in Ukrainian – in Russian and Hungarian.
I was driving through a sort of village and there were men sitting by the houses wearing black three piece suits and black hats. I asked, Are they fun? ́ ́ They told me: “No, they are not entertainers.” They are Hungarians. “I said, ‘What are they doing here?’ – “What do you mean; This is their country, they live here.” This was in the Soviet era, in the 1980s. They keep the Hungarian language, Hungarian names and all their national costumes. They are Hungarians and they feel Hungarians. And of course, if there is now a breach…
Tucker Carlson: And I think there are a lot of them. Many nations are upset about this – there are Transylvanians just like you, others, you know – but many nations are disillusioned with their newly drawn borders after the wars of the 20th century, and with wars going back a thousand years. and in the case that you presented and that I read today, you explained at length that you have a physical threat from the … posed by the West and NATO, including a possible nuclear threat, and that prompted them to act. Is that an appropriate characterization of what you said?
Vladimir Putin: I understand that my long speeches probably do not belong to the genre of an interview. That’s why I asked you at the beginning: “Are we going to have a serious discussion or a show?” You said – a serious discussion. So please be patient with me.
We come to the point where Soviet Ukraine was founded. Then, in 1991, the Soviet Union collapsed. And everything that Russia generously gave to Ukraine was “dragged away” from it.
I now come to a very important item on today’s agenda. After all, the collapse of the Soviet Union was de facto initiated by the Russian leadership. I don’t understand what was driving the Russian leadership at the time, but I suspect there were plenty of reasons to believe that everything would work out.
First, I think that the Russian leadership at that time believed that the foundations of relations between Russia and Ukraine were: in fact, a common language – more than 90% of the population there spoke Russian. family ties – one in three people there had some kind of family or friendship ties. common culture; common history; finally, the common faith; centuries of coexistence within a single state. and deeply interconnected economies. This was all so basic. All these elements together make our good relations inevitable.
The second point is very important. I want you, as an American citizen, and your viewers to know that. The former Russian leadership assumed that the Soviet Union no longer existed and therefore ideological dividing lines no longer existed. Russia even voluntarily and preemptively agreed to the collapse of the Soviet Union, believing that this would be understood by the so-called (now in horror quotes) “civilized West” as an invitation to cooperate and connect. This is what Russia expected from both the United States and the so-called collective West as a whole.
There were smart people, even in Germany. Egon Bahr, a prominent politician of the Social Democratic Party, who, in his personal talks with the Soviet leadership on the verge of the collapse of the Soviet Union, urged the creation of a new security system in Europe. Its purpose was to contribute to the unification of Germany, but also to create a new system that would include the United States, Canada, Russia and other Central European countries. But NATO does not need to expand. This is what he said: if NATO expands, everything will be like in the Cold War, only closer to Russia’s borders. This is. He was a wise old man, but no one listened to him. In fact, he once got angry (we have a recording of this conversation in our archives): “If you, he said, don’t listen to me, I’ll never set foot in Moscow again.” He was disillusioned with the Soviet leadership. He was right, everything happened exactly as he had said.
Tucker Carlson: Well, of course it has come true, and you’ve mentioned it many times. I think this is a valid point. And many in America believed that relations between Russia and the United States would be basically good after the collapse of the Soviet Union. But the opposite happened. But I never explained why you think this happened, except that the West is afraid of a powerful Russia. But we have a strong China, which the West doesn’t seem to be too afraid of. What about Russia? What do you think prompted policy makers to abolish it?
Vladimir Putin: The West is more afraid of a strong China than a strong Russia because Russia has 150 million people and China has a population of 1.5 billion and its economy is growing by leaps and bounds – more than five percent a year, they say. But that’s enough for China. As Bismark once put it, potential is the most important thing. China’s potential is huge – in terms of purchasing power parity and the size of its economy, it is now the largest economy in the world. It surpassed the United States a long time ago and is growing rapidly.
If we don’t talk about who’s afraid of whom, we don’t think in those terms. And let’s dwell on the fact that after 1991, when Russia expected to be included in the fraternal family of “civilized nations”, nothing of the kind happened. We were deceived (I don’t mean you personally, of course, when I say “you”, I’m talking about the United States), the promise was that NATO would not expand eastward, but this happened five times, it was five waves of expansion. We tolerated all this, we tried to convince them, we said: “Please don’t do it, we are now as bourgeois as you, we are a market economy and there is no Communist Party power.” Let’s negotiate.” After all, I’ve said it publicly before (let’s look at the Yeltsin era now), there was a moment when a certain gap began to grow between us. Before that, Yeltsin came to the United States. Remember, he spoke to Congress and said the good words, “God bless America.” All he said were signals – let’s go inside.
Remember the developments in Yugoslavia, before Yeltsin was showered with praise, as soon as the developments in Yugoslavia began, he raised his voice in support of the Serbs, and we could not but raise our voices for the Serbs in their defense. I understand there were complex processes going on there. But Russia could not but raise its voice in support of the Serbs, because the Serbs are also a special and narrow nation with an orthodox culture and so on. It is a nation that has suffered so much for generations. Well, anyway, the important thing is that Yeltsin expressed his support. What did the United States do? In violation of international law and the United Nations Charter, it began with the bombing of Belgrade.
It was the United States that let the genie out of the bottle. What else was said when Russia protested and expressed its displeasure? The UN Charter and international law are outdated. Now everyone invokes international law, but then they started saying that everything was outdated, everything had to be changed.
Actually, some things have to change because the balance of power has changed, that’s true, but not in this way. Yeltsin was immediately dragged into the mud, accused of alcoholism, understood nothing and knew nothing. He understood everything, I assure you.
Well, I became president in 2000. I thought: OK, the Yugoslavia issue is over, but we have to try to restore relations. Let’s reopen the door that Russia tried to walk through. And besides, I’ve said it publicly, I can repeat it. In a meeting here in the Kremlin with outgoing President Bill Clinton, right here in the next room, I said to him, I asked him, “Bill, do you think it would happen if Russia applied to join NATO?” “All of a sudden, he said, ‘You know, it’s interesting, I think so.’ But in the evening, when we had dinner, he said, “You know, I’ve talked to my team, no, no, that’s not possible now.” You can ask him, I think he will watch our interview, he will confirm it. I wouldn’t say such a thing if it hadn’t happened. Okay, so that’s impossible now.
Tucker Carlson: Were you honest? Would you have joined NATO?
Vladimir Putin: You see, I asked the question: “Is it possible or not?” And the answer I got was no. If I were insincere in my desire to learn the position of leadership…
Tucker Carlson: But if he had said yes, would you have joined NATO?
Vladimir Putin: If he had said yes, the rapprochement process would have started, and in the end, maybe, if we had expressed a sincere desire on behalf of our partners, it would have happened. But it didn’t happen. Well, no means no, okay, good.
Tucker Carlson: Why do you think that’s happening? Just to get to the point. I know you are obviously bitter about this. I understand. But why do you think the West rejected you then? Why the hostility? Why did the end of the Cold War not improve the relationship? What motivates you to do this?
Vladimir Putin: You said that I was bitter about the answer. No, it’s not bitterness, it’s just a statement of fact. We are not the bride and groom, bitterness, resentment, such things are not the point in such circumstances. We just realized that we are not welcome there, that’s all. ok good But let’s build relationships in a different way, let’s look elsewhere for common ground. Why we received such a negative response, you should ask your supervisor. I can only guess why: a country that is too big, with its own opinion, and so on. And the United States – I’ve seen how problems are solved in NATO.
I will now give you another example, which concerns Ukraine. The US leadership applies pressure and all NATO members vote obediently, even if they don’t like something. Now I will tell you what happened in Ukraine in 2008 in this regard. Although it is discussed, I will not tell you any secrets and I will not tell you anything new. Nevertheless, after that, we tried to build relationships in different ways. For example, because of the events in the Middle East and Iraq, we built relations with the United States in a very gentle, prudent and careful way.
I have repeatedly pointed out that the United States should not support separatist tendencies or terrorism in the North Caucasus. But they continued anyway. And political support, intelligence support, financial support, and even military support came from the United States and its satellites for terrorist groups in the Caucasus.
I once raised this issue with my colleague, who is also the President of the United States. He says, “That’s impossible! ́ ́ Do you have proof?’ I said yes”. I was prepared for this discussion and gave him this proof. He looked at it and you know what he said? I’m sorry, but that’s exactly what happened, I quote. He says, Well, I’ll kick them. ́ ́ We waited and waited for an answer – there was no answer.
I said to the director of the FSB: “Write to the CIA.” What is the outcome of the conversation with the president?’ He wrote once, twice and then we got a reply. We have the answer on file. The CIA responded: “We cooperated with the opposition in Russia. We believe this is the right thing to do and we will continue to do it.” Just ridiculous. Okay. We realized this was out of the question.
Tucker Carlson: Forces Against You? Do you think the CIA is trying to overthrow your government?
Vladimir Putin: Of course, in this particular case they meant the separatists, the terrorists who fought with us in the Caucasus. That’s what they called the opposition. This is the second point.
The third, very important moment is the moment when the American anti-missile defense (ABM) system was created. The beginning. We have long been convinced not to do it in the “United States. In addition, after being invited by Bush Jr.’s father, Bush Sr., to visit his seaside home, I had a very serious discussion with President Bush and his team. I have proposed that the United States, Russia, and Europe jointly build a missile defense system that we believe would threaten our security if built unilaterally, even though the United States has officially stated that it will be built against missile threats from Iran. This was the justification for the development of the missile defense system. I proposed that we work together – Russia, the United States and Europe. They said it was very interesting. They asked me, Are you serious? I said, Absolutely. ́ ́
Tucker Carlson: Can I ask what year was that?
Vladimir Putin: I don’t remember. It’s easy to find out online when I was in the US at Bush Sr.’s invitation. They told me it was very interesting. I said, “Imagine if we could tackle such a global, strategic security challenge together.” The world would change. We will probably have disagreements, possibly economic, even political, but we could drastically change the situation in the world.” He says, Yes. ́ ́ And he asks, ́ ́ Are you serious? I said, Of course. “We have to think about it,” they told me. I said, “Please go on.” ́ ́
Then Secretary of Defense R. Gates, former director of the CIA, and Secretary of State C. Rice came here to this cabinet. Right here at this table, they sat on this side. I, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Russian Minister of Defense – from this side. They said: “Yes, we have thought about it, we agree.” I said, “Thank God, great.” – “But with few exceptions.”
Tucker Carlson: So you’ve described twice that US presidents make decisions and then get undermined by their service chiefs. So it sounds like you are describing a system that is not run by the elected people.
Vladimir Putin: Right, right. In the end, they just told us to get lost. I’m not going to tell you the details because I think it’s wrong, after all, it was a confidential discussion. But our proposal was rejected, that’s a fact.
Then I said: “Look, but then we will have to take countermeasures.” We will create such attack systems, which will definitely surpass the anti-missile defense systems.” The reply was, “We do not do this against you, and you do what you will, provided it is not against us, nor against the United States.” I said, “Okay.”
Very good, that’s how it went. And we have built ultrasonic systems with transcontinental range and continue to develop them. In terms of the development of hypersonic attack systems, we are now ahead of everyone – the United States and other countries – and we are improving them every day.
But we weren’t, we were planning to go in the opposite direction and they pushed us away.
I now come to the eastward expansion of NATO. Well, they promised us, no NATO in the east, not an inch to the east, as we were told. And then what? They said, “Well, it’s not in the cards, so we’ll expand.” So there were five waves of expansion, the Baltic States, all of Eastern Europe and so on.
And now I come to the main thing: they finally came to Ukraine. In 2008, at the summit in Bucharest, they declared that the doors were open for Ukraine and Georgia to join NATO.
Now let’s see how decisions are made there. Germany, France and some other European countries appeared to be opposed. But then, as it turned out later, President Bush, and he’s such a tough guy, a tough politician, as I was told later, “he put pressure on us and we had to come to an agreement.” It’s ridiculous, it’s like kindergarten. Where are the guarantees? What kind of kindergarten is this, what kind of people are they, who are they? You see, they were pushed, they agreed. And then they say: “Ukraine will not be in NATO, you know.” I say: “I don’t know, I know you agreed in 2008, why won’t you agree in the future?” “Well, they’re putting pressure on us.” I say, Why don’t they push you tomorrow? And you will agree with me again.”
Well, it’s absurd. Who can you talk to? I just don’t get it. We are ready to talk. But with whom? Where are the guarantees? No one.
So they began to develop the territory of Ukraine. Whatever there is, I told you the background, how this region developed, what kind of relations there were with Russia. Every second or third person has always had a connection with Russia. And during the elections in the already independent, sovereign Ukraine, which gained its independence through the declaration of independence and, by the way, Ukraine is said to be a neutral state and in 2008, suddenly the doors or gates to NATO were open for this. Oh, come on! We didn’t come to an agreement like that. All presidents who have come to power in Ukraine have relied on an electorate that has a good attitude toward Russia in one way or another. This is southeast Ukraine, many people live here. And it was very difficult to prevent this electorate, which had a positive attitude toward Russia, from doing that.
Viktor Yanukovych came to power and how: the first time he won after President Kuchma, a third round was organized, which is not provided for in the Constitution of Ukraine. This is a coup. Imagine if someone in the United States didn’t like the result…
Tucker Carlson: In 2014?
Vladimir Putin: Before that. No, that was before that. After President Kuchma, Viktor Yanukovych won the election. However, his opponents did not recognize this victory, the United States supported the opposition and the third round was scheduled. What is this? This is a coup. The US supported it and the winner of the third round came to power. Imagine if someone in the United States did not like something, and the third round of elections was organized, which is not provided for in the US Constitution, and yet was held in Ukraine. Okay, Viktor Yushchenko, who was considered a pro-Western politician, came to power. Well, we have built relationships with him as well. He came to Moscow on visits, we visited Kiev. I visited it a lot. We met in an informal setting. If he is pro-western, then so be it. That’s fine, let people do their jobs. The situation must evolve within independent Ukraine itself. Under Kuchma’s leadership, the situation worsened and eventually Viktor Yanukovych came to power.
Maybe he wasn’t the best president and politician. I don’t know, I don’t want to leave reviews. However, the question of the EU connection came up. We have always been lenient with that: match yourself. But when we read this association agreement, it turned out to be a problem for us, given that we had a free trade zone and an open customs border with Ukraine, which had to open its borders to Europe as part of this association, which could lead to a flood of our market.
We said, “No, that’s not going to work. Then we will close our border with Ukraine.” The customs border, in other words. Yanukovych began calculating how much Ukraine would gain and how much it would lose, telling his European partners: “I need more time to think before I sign.” The moment he said this, the opposition began to take destructive measures, supported by the West. It all culminated in the Maidan and a coup in Ukraine.
Tucker Carlson: So he did more trade with Russia than with the EU? Ukraine has…
Vladimir Putin: Of course. It’s not even about trading volume, although it mostly is. These are cooperative relationships on which the entire Ukrainian economy was based. The cooperative relations between the companies have been very close since the time of the Soviet Union. A company produced parts where they were to be assembled in both Russia and Ukraine and vice versa. In the past, there were very close relationships.
There has been a coup d’état, although I don’t want to go into details now as I think it is inappropriate. The US told us: “Calm down Yanukovych and we will calm down the opposition.” Let the situation unfold in the scenario of a political solution.” We said, OK. Agree. Let’s do it this way.” As the Americans requested, Yanukovych did not use the armed forces or the police, but the armed opposition in Kiev staged a coup. What does this mean? “Who do you think You Are;” I wanted to ask the US leadership at the time.
Tucker Carlson: Backed by Who?
Vladimir Putin: With the support of the CIA, of course. The organization you wanted to join earlier too, as far as I know. Maybe we should thank God they didn’t let you in. Although it is a reliable organization. I understand. My former counterpart, in the sense that I served in the First Main Directorate – the secret service of the Soviet Union. They have always been our rivals. A job is a job.
Technically, they have done everything right, they have achieved their goal of changing governments. Politically, however, it was a colossal mistake. Certainly, it was a miscalculation by the political leadership. They should have seen what would come of it.
Thus, in 2008, the doors of NATO opened to Ukraine. In 2014 there was a coup, they started persecuting those who did not accept the coup and it was indeed a coup, they were a threat to Crimea, which we had to take under our protection. They launched a war in Donbas in 2014 using aircraft and artillery against civilians. That’s where it all started. There is a video of planes attacking Donetsk from above. They launched a large-scale military operation, and then another. When they failed, they started preparing the next one. All this in the context of the military development of this territory and the opening of NATO’s doors.
How could we not express our concern about what was happening? In our view, that would be gross negligence – that would be it. It’s just that the US political leadership pushed us to a limit that we weren’t allowed to cross, because that could destroy Russia itself. Moreover, in the face of this “war machine”, we could not abandon our fellow believers and, indeed, a part of the Russian people.
Tucker Carlson: That was eight years before the current conflict began. What was the trigger for you? At what point did you decide you had to do this?
Vladimir Putin: First of all, it was the coup in Ukraine that triggered the conflict.
Incidentally, the representatives of three European countries – Germany, Poland and France – had arrived at that time. They were the guarantors of the signed agreement between the Yanukovych government and the opposition. You have signed it as a guarantor. Nevertheless, the opposition staged a coup and all these countries pretended not to remember that they were guarantors of a peaceful solution. They just threw it in the oven right away and no one can remember it.
I don’t know if the US knows anything about this agreement between the opposition and the authorities and their three guarantors, who supported the coup instead of bringing the whole situation back to the political level. Although it made no sense, believe me, because President Yanukovych agreed to all the conditions, he was ready to hold early elections, in which he had no chance of winning, frankly, everyone knew this. So why the coup, why the victims? Why threaten Crimea? Why start a business in Donbass? I do not understand. This is exactly the misunderstanding. The CIA fulfilled its duty to complete the coup. I think one of the under-secretaries of state said it cost a lot, almost 5 billion. But the political mistake was colossal! Why would they do this? All this could have been done legally, without casualties, without military operations, without the loss of Crimea. Had it not been for the bloody developments on the Maidan, we would never have thought of lifting a finger.
Because we agreed that after the collapse of the Soviet Union, our borders should run along the borders of the former republics of the Union. We agreed on that. But we never agreed on the enlargement of NATO and, moreover, we never agreed that Ukraine would join NATO. We did not agree to NATO bases there without being told about it. For decades, we’ve asked over and over: Don’t do this, don’t do that.
And what was the trigger for the recent events? First, the current Ukrainian leadership has declared that it will not implement the Minsk agreements, which, as you know, were signed in Minsk after the events of 2014, where the plan for a peaceful solution to Donbas was presented. But no, the current Ukrainian leadership, the foreign minister, all the other officials and then the president himself said they don’t like anything about the Minsk agreements. In other words, they wouldn’t implement it. A year or a year and a half ago, the former leaders of Germany and France openly declared to the whole world that, although they had signed the Minsk agreements, they never intended to implement them. They just led us by the nose.
Tucker Carlson: Was there anyone to speak? Did you call the US president and secretary of state and say if you continue to militarize Ukraine with NATO forces, we will act?
Vladimir Putin: We have been talking about this all this time. We called on the leadership of the United States and Europe to immediately stop these developments and implement the Minsk agreements. Honestly, I didn’t know how to do it, but I was ready to implement it. These agreements were complicated for Ukraine; they contained many elements of the independence of these Donbas regions. Correctly. However, I was absolutely sure and I will tell you now: I sincerely believed that if we managed to convince the people of Donbas – and we had to work hard to convince them to return to Ukrainian statehood – then slowly the wounds would disappear and they were starting to heal. When this part of the territory rejoined the common social environment and pensions and social benefits were again paid, slowly all the parties were united.
No, no one wanted that, everyone wanted to solve the problem only with military force. But we couldn’t let that happen. And the situation reached its climax when the Ukrainian side announced: “No, we are not going to do anything.” They also began to prepare for military action. They were the ones who started the war in 2014. Our goal is to stop this war. And we didn’t start this war in 2022. This is an attempt to stop it.
Tucker Carlson: You think you stopped it now? I mean, have you achieved your goals?
Vladimir Putin: No, we have not yet achieved our goals, because one of them is de-Nazification. This means banning any kind of neo-Nazi movements. This is one of the issues we discussed during the negotiation process that ended in Istanbul at the beginning of last year and it was not our initiative because we were told (especially by the Europeans) that “it is necessary to create conditions for the final signing of the documents”. My colleagues in France and Germany said: “How can you imagine them signing a contract with a gun to their head?” The troops had to be withdrawn from Kiev. “I said, ‘Okay.’ We withdrew the troops from Kiev.
As soon as we withdrew our troops from Kiev, our Ukrainian negotiators immediately trashed all the agreements we had made in Istanbul and, with the help of the United States and its satellites in Europe, prepared for a long-term armed confrontation. This is how the situation developed. And that’s how it looks now.
Tucker Carlson: What is de-Nazification? What would that mean?
Vladimir Putin: That’s what I want to talk about now. This is a very important issue. De-Nazification. After independence, Ukraine, as some Western analysts say, began to search for its identity. And nothing better came out of it than to build that identity on some false heroes who collaborated with Hitler.
I have already said that at the beginning of the 19th century, theorists of Ukrainian independence and sovereignty assumed that an independent Ukraine should have very good relations with Russia. However, due to historical development, these lands belonged to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth – Poland, where Ukrainians were persecuted and treated very brutally and subjected to harsh treatment. There were also attempts to destroy their identity. All this remained in the minds of the people. When World War II broke out, some of this highly nationalist elite collaborated with Hitler in the belief that he would bring them freedom. German troops, even SS troops, forced Hitler’s collaborators to do the dirtiest work, namely the extermination of the Polish and Jewish population. Hence this brutal slaughter of the Polish and Jewish population, as well as the Russian population. This was led by well-known people – Bandera, Shukhevich. It was these people who became national heroes – that’s the problem. And we are constantly told that nationalism and neo-Nazism exist in other countries. Yes, there are seedlings, but we are uprooting them and other countries are fighting against them. But this is not the case in Ukraine. These people have become national heroes in Ukraine. Monuments have been erected to these people, they appear on flags, their names are shouted by crowds of people walking with torches, as happened in Nazi Germany. These were the people who exterminated the Poles, the Jews and the Russians. It is necessary to put an end to this practice and prevent the spread of this concept.
I say that Ukrainians are part of one Russian people. They say, No, we are a divided people. okay good. If they consider themselves an independent people, they have the right to do so, but not on the basis of National Socialism, Nazi ideology.
Tucker Carlson: Would you be happy with the area you have now?
Vladimir Putin: I will answer the question to the end. You just asked a question about neo-Nazism and de-Nazism.
Look, the President of Ukraine visited Canada. This story is well known, but hushed up in Western countries: the Canadian parliament introduced a man who, as the speaker of the parliament said, fought against the Russians in the Second World War. Who fought against the Russians in WWII? Hitler and his accomplices. It turned out that this man served in the SS troops. He personally killed Russians, Poles and Jews. The SS troops consisted of Ukrainian nationalists who did this dirty work. The President of Ukraine appeared with the entire Canadian Parliament and applauded this man. How can you imagine this? By the way, the President of Ukraine himself is a Jew by nationality.
Tucker Carlson: Really, my question is: What do you do about it? I mean, Hitler has been dead for eighty years, Nazi Germany no longer exists, and it’s true. So I believe that with what you say, you want to eliminate, or at least control, Ukrainian nationalism. But how do you do that?
Vladimir Putin: Listen to me. Your question is very subtle.
And can I tell you what I think? No offense?
Tucker Carlson: Of course!
Vladimir Putin: This question seems delicate, it is quite disturbing.
They say Hitler has been dead for so many years, 80 years. But his example lives on. The people who exterminated Jews, Russians and Poles are alive. And the president, the current president of today’s Ukraine, applauds him in the Canadian parliament and gives him a standing ovation! Can we say that we have completely eradicated this ideology when what we see today is happening? In our view, this is de-Nazification. We must get rid of those who cultivate this concept and support this practice and try to maintain it – this is de-Nazism. This is what we mean.
Tucker Carlson: Right. My question is almost specific, of course it was not a defense of National Socialism. Otherwise, it was a practical matter. You don’t control the whole country, you don’t seem to want to. So how do you get rid of that culture, ideology, feelings, or view of history in a country you don’t control? What do you do about it?
Vladimir Putin: You know, strange as it may seem to you, at the negotiations in Istanbul, we agreed that – we have everything in writing – neo-Nazism will not be cultivated in Ukraine, including that it will be banned at the legislative level.
Mr. Carlson, we agreed on that. It turns out that this can be done during the negotiation process. And there is nothing humiliating about Ukraine as a modern civilized state. Is a state allowed to promote National Socialism? That’s not it, is it? This is.
Tucker Carlson: Will there be talks? And why have there been no talks to resolve the conflict in Ukraine? Peace talks.
Vladimir Putin: It was. In a complicated process, they reached a very high level of alignment of positions, but they were still almost complete. But after we withdrew our troops from Kiev, the other side (Ukraine), as I said before, threw all these agreements into the sea and followed the instructions of Western countries, European countries and the United States to fight Russia to the bitter end end.
In addition, the President of Ukraine banned negotiations with Russia. He signed an executive order prohibiting everyone from negotiating with Russia. But how should we negotiate if he forbids himself and everyone else to do so? We know that he suggests some ideas about this arrangement. But to agree on something, we have to have a dialogue. Is not that right;
Tucker Carlson: Well, but you wouldn’t talk to the Ukrainian president, you’d talk to the American president. When was the last time you talked to Joe Biden?
Vladimir Putin: I can’t remember when I spoke with him. I don’t remember, we can look it up.
Tucker Carlson: Don’t you remember?
Vladimir Putin: No, why? Do I have to remember everything? I have my own things to do. We have internal affairs.
Tucker Carlson: But it’s funding the war you’re waging, so I think it would be memorable?
Vladimir Putin: Well, yes, he is financing, but of course I spoke with him before the special military operation. And I said to him then, by the way – I’m not going to go into detail, I never do – but I said to him then, “I think you’re making a big mistake of historic proportions by supporting everything that’s going on over there in Ukraine, kicking Russia out.” I told him, I told him repeatedly, by the way. I think it would be appropriate to stop here.
Tucker Carlson: What did he say?
Vladimir Putin: Ask him, please. It is easier for you, you are a citizen of the United States, go and ask him. It is not appropriate for me to comment on our discussion.
Tucker Carlson: But you haven’t spoken to him since February 2022?
Vladimir Putin: No, we didn’t talk. However, some contacts are maintained. Speaking of which, remember what I told you about my proposal to work together on a missile defense system?
Tucker Carlson: Yeah.
Vladimir Putin: You can ask them all. Everyone is alive and well, thank God. Former President Condoleezza is doing well, and I think Mr. Gates and the current director of the Central Intelligence Agency, Mr. Burns, who was ambassador to Russia at the time, is, in my opinion, a very successful ambassador. They were all witnesses to these conversations. Ask them.
Again, if you’re interested in what President Biden told me, ask him. Anyway, I talked to him about it.
Tucker Carlson: I’m definitely interested. But on the other hand, it looks like it could develop into something that could plunge the entire world into conflict and cause a nuclear launch. So why don’t you call Biden and say, “Let’s work this out”?
Vladimir Putin: What do we need to clarify? It’s very simple. I repeat, we have contacts through various services. I’ll tell you what we say about this and what we say to the US leadership: “If you really want to stop fighting, you have to stop supplying weapons.” It will be over in a few weeks. This is. And then we can agree on some terms, before you do that, stop.”
Which is easier? Why should I call him? What should I talk to him about? Or ask him about what? “They will supply Ukraine with this and that weapon. Oh, I’m afraid, I’m afraid, please don’t.’ What can we talk about?
Tucker Carlson: Do you think NATO was concerned that this could turn into a world war or a nuclear conflict?
Vladimir Putin: At least that’s what they’re talking about. And they are trying to intimidate their own population with an imaginary Russian threat. This is an obvious fact. And thinking people, not philistines, but thinking people, analysts, people who are involved in real politics, just smart people, understand very well that this is false. They are trying to increase the Russian threat.
Tucker Carlson: The threat I think you were referring to is Russian invasion of Poland and Latvia – expansionist behavior. Can you imagine a scenario in which you send Russian troops into Poland?
Vladimir Putin: Only in one case: when Poland attacks Russia. Why? Because we have no interest in Poland, Latvia or anywhere else. Why should we do this? We just don’t care. They are just threats.
Tucker Carlson: Well, the argument, I know, you know, is that he invaded Ukraine – he has territorial targets across the continent. And you flat out say you don’t?
Vladimir Putin: This is absolutely out of the question. You just don’t need to be an analyst, it’s against common sense to get involved in a world war. And a world war will bring all humanity to the brink of destruction. It is obvious.
There are certainly means of prevention. They have been scaring everyone in our country all this time: tomorrow Russia will use tactical nuclear weapons, tomorrow Russia will use them, no, the day after tomorrow. So what? These are just horror stories for people on the road to extract extra money from US taxpayers and European taxpayers in the confrontation with Russia in the Ukrainian theater of war. The goal is to weaken Russia as much as possible.
Tucker Carlson: One of the senior US senators from the state of New York, Chuck Schumer, said yesterday, in my opinion, that we have to continue to fund the Ukrainian effort, otherwise US soldiers and citizens could fight there. What is your opinion on this?
Vladimir Putin: This is a provocation and a cheap provocation.
I don’t understand why American soldiers have to fight in Ukraine. There are mercenaries from the United States. The most mercenaries are from Poland, with mercenaries from the United States in second place and mercenaries from Georgia in third place. Well, if one had the desire to send in regular troops, it would certainly bring humanity to the brink of a very serious, global conflict. This is obvious.
Does the United States need this? Why? Thousands of miles from your national territory! Don’t you have something better to do?
They have border problems, immigration problems, national debt problems – over $33 trillion. You have nothing better to do, so you have to fight in Ukraine? Wouldn’t it be better to negotiate with Russia? Make an agreement and already understand the situation that is developing today and realize that Russia will fight for its interests to the end. And when we realize this, we really come back to common sense, start respecting our country and its interests and look for some solutions. It seems to me that this is much wiser and more logical.
Tucker Carlson: Who blew up Nord Stream?
Vladimir Putin: Of course you are. (Laughing.)
Tucker Carlson: I was busy that day. I didn’t blow up Nord Stream.
Vladimir Putin: You personally may have an alibi, but the CIA has no such alibi.
Tucker Carlson: Do you have proof that NATO or the CIA did it?
Vladimir Putin: You know, I’m not going to go into details, but people always say in such cases: “Look for someone who is interested.” But in this case, we should not only look for someone who is interested, but also someone who has skills. Although there are many interested parties, not all of them are able to sink to the bottom of the Baltic Sea and cause this explosion. These two components must be linked: who is interested and who is able to do so
Tucker Carlson: But I’m confused. I mean, this is the biggest industrial terrorist attack of all time and the biggest carbon emitter in history. OK, so if you had evidence, and given your security services, your intelligence services, you would probably do this, that NATO, the US, the CIA, the West did this, why not present it and win a propaganda victory?
Vladimir Putin: In the propaganda war, it is very difficult to defeat the United States, because the United States controls all the media in the world and many European media. The biggest beneficiaries of the biggest European media are American financial institutions. Don’t you know this? So, it is possible to participate in this project, but the cost is prohibitive, so to speak. We can simply shine a light on our sources of information and we will get no results. It is clear to the whole world what happened, and even American analysts are directly talking about it. This is true.
Tucker Carlson: Yeah. But here’s a question you might be able to answer. As you know, you worked in Germany. The Germans clearly know that their NATO partner has done this, that they have done a lot of damage to their economy – it may never recover. Why are they silent about it? This is very confusing to me. Why don’t the Germans say anything about it?
Vladimir Putin: And that confuses me. But the current German leadership is oriented more towards the interests of the collective West than towards its own national interests, otherwise the logic of its action or inaction is difficult to explain. After all, we are not only talking about Nord Stream-1, which blew up and Nord Stream-2 was damaged, but also about a pipeline that is intact and through which natural gas can be delivered to Europe, but Germany does not open it . We are ready, please.
There is another route through Poland, called Yamal-Europe, which also allows a large flow. Poland closed it, but Poland is withdrawing from German hands, receiving money from pan-European funds, and Germany is the main donor of these pan-European funds. Germany supplies Poland to some extent. And they have blocked the road to Germany. Why? I do not understand. Ukraine, to which the Germans supply weapons and give money.
Germany is the second largest donor of financial aid to Ukraine after the United States. There are two natural gas routes through Ukraine. They just blocked a route, the Ukrainians. Open the second route and please get gas from Russia. They don’t open it. Why don’t the Germans say, “Look, guys, we’ll give you money and guns.” Please open the valve, let the gas from Russia pass for us.
We buy liquefied gas in Europe at exorbitant prices, which nullifies our competitiveness and the economy in general. Would you like us to give you money? Let’s live a decent life, let’s earn money for our economy, because that’s where the money we give you comes from.” They refuse to do so. Why? Ask them. ( Knocks on the table. ) That’s how it is in their heads. These are extremely incompetent people.
Tucker Carlson: Well, maybe the world is collapsing into two hemispheres. One with cheap energy, the other without. And I would like to ask you: if we are now a multipolar world, as is apparently the case, can you describe the alliance blocs? Who do you think is on each side?
Vladimir Putin: Listen, you said that the world is divided into two hemispheres. The human brain is divided into two hemispheres: one is responsible for specific activities, the other is more responsible for creativity, and so on. But it is still one and the same head. The world must be a whole, security must be shared, not for the “golden billion”. This is the only scenario in which the world could be stable, sustainable and predictable. Until then, although the head is split in two, it is a disease, a serious, damaging condition. It is a time of serious sickness that the world is going through today.
But I think that thanks to honest journalism – this work is similar to the work of doctors – this could somehow be remedied.
Tucker Carlson: Well, let’s just give one example – the US dollar, which has brought the world together in many ways, maybe not to your advantage, but certainly to our advantage. Will this disappear as a reserve currency, as a generally accepted currency? How do you think the sanctions have changed the dollar’s position in the world?
Vladimir Putin: You know, using the dollar as a tool in the foreign policy struggle is one of the biggest strategic mistakes of the US political leadership. The dollar is the cornerstone of the United States’ power. I think everyone understands very well that no matter how many dollars are printed, they are quickly distributed around the world. Inflation in the United States is minimal. It’s about 3 or 3.4 percent, which I think is perfectly acceptable for the US. But they won’t stop printing. What does the $33 trillion debt tell us? It’s all about the shows.
Nevertheless, it is the most important weapon of the United States to maintain its power around the world. As soon as the political leadership decided to use the US dollar as a means of political struggle, it dealt a blow to this American power. I don’t want to use harsh language, but it is stupid and a serious mistake.
Look what’s happening in the world. Even allies of the United States are now drawing down their dollar reserves. In light of this, everyone starts looking for ways to protect themselves. But the fact that the United States is applying restrictive measures to some countries, such as trade restrictions, asset freezes, etc., is of great concern and sends a message to the entire world.
What did we have here? By 2022, about 80% of Russia’s foreign trade transactions were carried out in US dollars and euros. About 50% of our trade with third countries was in US dollars, compared to just 13% today. It was not us who banned the use of the US dollar, we had no such intention. It was the decision of the United States to limit our trade in US dollars. I think this is complete nonsense from the point of view of the interests of the United States themselves and their taxpayers, as it hurts the economy of the United States and undermines the power of the United States around the world.
By the way, our yuan transactions accounted for about 3%. Today, 34% of our transactions are settled in rubles and about the same amount, just over 34%, in yuan.
Why did the United States do this? My only guess is complacency. They probably thought it would lead to a total collapse, but nothing collapsed. In addition, other countries, including oil producers, are already considering and accepting payments for oil in yuan. Do you even know what is going on or not? Is this clear to anyone in the United States? What are you doing? They cut themselves… That’s what all the experts say. Ask any intelligent and thinking person in the United States what the dollar means to the United States? You kill it with your own hands.
Tucker Carlson: I think that’s a fair assessment. The question is, what’s next? And perhaps trading one colonial power for another, let alone a less sentimental and indulgent colonial power? For example, is there a risk that the BRICS countries will be completely dominated by the Chinese economy? In a way that is not good for their dominance. Are you worried about it?
Vladimir Putin: We’ve heard these bogus stories before. It’s a bogeyman story. We are neighbors of China. You can’t choose your neighbors and you can’t choose your close relatives. We share a 1000 km border with them. That’s number one.
Second, we have a long history of living together, which we are used to.
Third, China’s foreign policy philosophy is not aggressive, but the idea of constantly seeking compromises, and we can see this.
The next point is this. We are always told the same bogey story, and here it is again, albeit in a euphemistic form, but still the same bogey story: cooperation with China is becoming more and more intense. The rate at which China’s cooperation with Europe is developing is higher and greater than the development of Sino-Russian cooperation. Ask the Europeans: are they not afraid? I may not know, but they are still trying to gain access to the Chinese market at any cost, especially now that they are facing financial problems. Chinese companies are also exploring the European market.
Do Chinese companies have little presence in the United States? Yes, the political decisions are such that they try to limit their cooperation with China.
It is to your detriment, Mr. Tucker, that you are limiting cooperation with China, you are hurting yourself. It is a delicate matter and there are no panaceas, just like with the dollar.
Therefore, before introducing illegal sanctions – illegal within the meaning of the UN Charter – you should think very carefully. For decision makers, this appears to be a problem.
Tucker Carlson: You just said that the world would be a much better place if it wasn’t broken up into competing alliances, if there was global cooperation. One of the reasons you don’t have this is because the current US administration is decidedly against you. Do you think you could restore communication with the US government if there was a new administration after Joe Biden? Or does it matter who the president is?
Vladimir Putin: I will tell you. But let me finish the previous thought. Together with my colleague and friend President Xi Jinping, we have set a goal of achieving $200 billion in mutual trade with China this year. We have passed this level. According to our data, our bilateral trade with China is already $230 billion, and according to Chinese statistics, it is $240 billion.
Another important thing: our trade is balanced and complementary in the fields of high technology, energy, scientific research and development. It is very balanced.
As for the BRICS countries, where Russia took over the presidency this year, the BRICS countries, in general, are developing very quickly.
If I remember correctly, the share of the G7 countries in the world economy was 47% in 1992, but in 2022, I think it was just over 30%. While the BRICS share was only 16% in 1992, their share is now greater than that of the G7. It has nothing to do with the events in Ukraine. This is due to the trends in global growth and the global economy that I just mentioned, and this is inevitable. It will continue like this, it’s like the sunrise – you can’t prevent the sunrise, you have to adapt to it. How is the United States adapting? With the help of violence: sanctions, pressure, bombing and deployment of armed forces.
This is complacency. Your political establishment does not understand that the world is changing (under objective conditions) and in order to maintain your level – even if someone, excuse me, aspires to the level of sovereignty – you need to make the right decisions competently and in time.
Such brutal actions, including against Russia and other countries, are counterproductive. This is an obvious fact; it has already been made clear.
You just asked me if another leader will come and change anything. It’s not about the leader, it’s not about the personality of a particular person. I had a very good relationship, let’s say, with Bush. I know in the States he was portrayed as a kind of country boy who doesn’t understand much. I assure you this is not the case. I think he also made a lot of mistakes when it came to Russia. I told you about 2008 and the decision in Bucharest to open NATO’s doors to Ukraine and so on. This happened during his presidency. It actually put pressure on the Europeans.
But overall, I had a very good relationship with him on a personal human level. He was no worse than any other American, Russian or European politician. I assure you, he understood what he was doing as well as others. I also had such a personal relationship with Trump.
It is not about the personality of the leader, but about the mentality of the elites. If the idea of domination at any cost, which is also based on violent measures, dominates American society, nothing will change, it will get worse. But if, after all, you realize that the world has changed due to objective conditions, and you should adapt to it in time, taking advantage of the advantages that the USA still has today, then maybe something can change.
Look, China’s economy is the first economy in the world with purchasing power parity. In terms of volume, it has long surpassed the US. In second place is the United States, then India (one and a half billion people) and then Japan, followed by Russia in fifth place. Russia was Europe’s top economy last year, despite sanctions and restrictions. In your opinion, is this normal: sanctions, restrictions, inability to make payments in dollars, interruption of SWIFT services, sanctions against our ships carrying oil, sanctions against aircraft, sanctions on everything and everywhere? Most sanctions in the world are imposed on Russia. And we became Europe’s number one economy during that time.
The tools the US is using don’t work. Well, you have to think about what to do. If this realization reaches the ruling elites, then yes, then the first person of the state will act in anticipation of what the voters and people who make decisions at different levels expect from this person. Then maybe something will change.
Tucker Carlson: But you’re describing two different systems. You say that the leader acts in the interest of the voters, but you also say that these decisions are not made by the leader, but by the ruling classes. You have ruled this country for so long that you have met all these American presidents. Who do you think are these centers of power in the United States? And who really makes the decisions?
Vladimir Putin: I don’t know. America is a complex country that is conservative on one side and rapidly changing on the other. It is not easy for us to get everything under control.
Who decides the election – you can understand that if each state has its own legislation, each state is self-regulating, someone can be disqualified from state-level elections. This is a two-speed electoral system that is very difficult to understand.
Certainly, there are two dominant parties, the Republicans and the Democrats, and within that party system are the centers that make decisions, prepare the decisions.
So why, in my opinion, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, was such a misguided, crude and completely unjustified policy of pressure against Russia pursued? Ultimately, this is a policy of pressure. The expansion of NATO, the support of the separatists in the Caucasus, the construction of an anti-missile defense system – all these are elements of pressure. Print, pressure, pressure.
To get Ukraine into NATO, then it’s a matter of pressure, pressure, pressure. Why? I think, among other things, because overcapacity has been created. During the confrontation with the Soviet Union, many centers and specialists for the Soviet Union were created that could do nothing else. It seemed to them that they had convinced the political leadership: it was necessary to continue to “sculpt” Russia, trying to crush it, creating several quasi-state entities on this territory and subjecting them to a divided form in order to use their combined potential for the future match with China. This is wrong, given also the excessive capabilities of those who advocated confrontation with the Soviet Union. We must get rid of it, there must be new, fresh forces, people who look to the future and understand what is happening in the world.
Take a look at how Indonesia is developing? 600 million people. How can we escape this? Nowhere, we just have to assume that Indonesia will be accepted into the club of the world’s top economies (it already is), no matter who likes it or not.
Yes, we understand and are clear that despite all the economic problems, the situation in the United States is still normal and the economy is developing properly. GDP is growing by 2.5% if I’m not mistaken.
But if we want to secure the future, we need to change our approach to change. As I said earlier, the world will continue to change, regardless of the outcome of the developments in Ukraine. The world is changing. In the United States itself, experts write that the United States is gradually changing its position in the world, it is your experts who write this, I just read them. The only question is how this will happen – painfully and quickly or gently and gradually. And this was written by people who are not anti-American. They simply follow global growth trends. This is.
And to evaluate them and change policy, we need people who think, look ahead, can analyze and propose certain decisions at the level of political leaders.
Tucker Carlson: I just have to ask. You have made it clear that the eastward expansion of NATO is a violation of the promise made to all of you in the 1990s. It is a threat to your country. Shortly before sending troops to Ukraine, the Vice President of the United States addressed the Security Conference and encouraged the President of Ukraine to join NATO. Do you think this was an attempt to provoke you into military action?
Vladimir Putin: I repeat it again: we have repeatedly proposed to find a solution to the problems that arose in Ukraine after the 2014 coup by peaceful means. But no one listened to us. And besides, the Ukrainian leaders, who were completely under the control of the United States, suddenly declared that they would not comply with the Minsk agreements, that they did not like everything there and continued their military activities in this area.
And at the same time, this area has been exploited by NATO military structures under the guise of various personnel training and retraining centers. They actually started setting up bases there. This is.
Ukraine announced that Russians were untitled nationals (law passed) and at the same time passed laws restricting the rights of untitled nationalities in Ukraine. Having received all these southeastern lands as a gift from the Russian people, Ukraine suddenly declared that the Russians in this region were an unnamed nationality. Is normal; All this together led to the decision to end the war started by the neo-Nazis in Ukraine in 2014.
Tucker Carlson: Do you think Zelensky has the freedom to negotiate a solution to this conflict?
Vladimir Putin: I don’t know the details, of course it’s hard for me to judge, but I think he did it, in any case he did it earlier. His father fought in the Second World War against the fascists, the Nazis, I once told him about it. I said, Volodya, what are you doing? Why do you support neo-Nazis in Ukraine today when your father fought against fascism? He was a frontline soldier.” I’m not going to tell you what he replied, that’s a separate issue and I think it’s wrong for me to do that.
But when it comes to freedom of choice, why not? He came to power with the expectations of the Ukrainian people that he would lead Ukraine to peace. He spoke about it, thanks to which he won the election with an overwhelming majority. But then, when he came to power, I think two things became clear to him: firstly, it is better not to clash with neo-Nazis and nationalists, because they are aggressive and very active, from whom you can expect anything, and secondly , the West led by the US supports them and will always support those who come into conflict with Russia – this is beneficial and safe. So he took the appropriate position, even though he promised his people that he would end the war in Ukraine. He cheated his voters.
Tucker Carlson: But do you think that at this point – as of February 2024 – he has the latitude and the freedom to speak directly to you or the government, which would clearly help his country or the world? Do you think he can do this?
Vladimir Putin: Why not? He considers himself the head of state, he won the election. Although we in Russia believe that the coup is the main source of power for everything that happened after 2014, and in that sense, even the current government is flawed. But he thinks he is the president, and in that capacity he is recognized by the United States, all of Europe and almost the rest of the world – why not? It can.
We negotiated with Ukraine in Istanbul, we agreed, he knew it. In addition, the chairman of the negotiating team, Mr. Arakhamia surnamed, in my opinion, is still the head of the faction of the ruling party, the president’s party in the Rada. He still leads the presidential faction in the Rada, the country’s parliament, and still sits there. He even temporarily signed the document I’m telling you about. But afterwards he declared publicly before the whole world: “We were ready to sign this document, but Mr. Johnson, then Prime Minister of Great Britain, came and advised us not to, saying it was better to fight against her of Russia”. They would give what we needed to give back what was lost during the conflicts with Russia. And we agreed with this proposal.” Look, his testimony has been released. He said it publicly.
Can they come back to it or not? The question is: do they want it or not?
In addition, the President of Ukraine issued a decree prohibiting negotiations with us. Let’s repeal this ordinance and that’s it. In fact, we have never rejected negotiations. We keep hearing: Is Russia ready? Yes, we didn’t refuse! They were the ones who publicly refused. So, let him revoke his decree and start negotiations. We never refused.
And the fact that they complied with the request or persuasion of Mr. Johnson, the former Prime Minister of Great Britain, seems to me ridiculous and very sad. Because, as Mr. Arakhamia put it, “we could have stopped these hostilities, this war, a year and a half ago.” But the British convinced us and we refused.” Where is Mr. Johnson now? And the war continues.
Tucker Carlson: That’s a good question. Why did he do that?
Vladimir Putin: Hell knows. I don’t understand it myself. There was a general starting point. For some reason, everyone was under the illusion that Russia could be defeated on the battlefield. From arrogance, from a pure heart, but not from a great mind.
Tucker Carlson: You described the connection between Russia and Ukraine. You yourself have described Russia as Orthodox a few times – this is central to your understanding of Russia. What does this mean for you? According to your own description, you are a Christian leader. What impact does this have on you?
Vladimir Putin: You know, as I mentioned earlier, Prince Vladimir himself was baptized in 988 following the example of his grandmother, Princess Olga, then he baptized his troops and then gradually, over several years, all of Russia. It was a long process – from paganism to Christianity took many years. But in the end, this Orthodoxy, Eastern Christianity, has taken deep root in the consciousness of the Russian people.
As Russia expanded and embraced other nations that professed Islam, Buddhism, and Judaism, Russia was always very loyal to people who professed other religions. That is their strength. This is absolutely clear.
And the fact is that the main tenets and the main values in all the religions of the world that I just mentioned, which are the traditional religions of the Russian Federation, Russia, are very similar, not to say the same. By the way, the Russian authorities have always paid very special attention to the culture and religion of the peoples who came to the Russian Empire. This, in my opinion, is the basis for both the security and stability of the Russian statehood – all peoples living in Russia, in principle, consider it their homeland.
When, say, people from Latin America move to you or to Europe – an even clearer and more understandable example – then people are coming, but they have come to you from their historical homeland or from European countries. And people representing different religions in Russia consider Russia as their homeland, they have no other homeland. We are together, it’s a big family. And our traditional values are very similar. I was just talking about a big family, but everyone has their own family, and that is the foundation of our society. And when we say that homeland and family are specifically connected, then it is indeed so, because it is impossible to ensure a normal future for our children and our families if we do not foresee a normal, sustainable future for the whole country, for the homeland. This is why patriotism in Russia is so strong.
Tucker Carlson: I can say that the only difference between the religions is that Christianity is specifically a non-violent religion. Jesus says, “Turn the other cheek, do not kill.” How can a leader of a country who has to kill be a Christian? How do you reconcile this with yourself?
Vladimir Putin: It is very simple: when it comes to protecting yourself and your family, your homeland. We are not going to attack anyone.
When did the developments in Ukraine begin? Since the beginning of the coup and hostilities in Donbass, they have started. And we protect our people, ourselves, our country and our future.
Regarding religion in general.
You know, it’s not about looks, it’s not about going to church every day or banging your head on the floor. It is in the heart. And our culture is so anthropocentric. Dostoyevsky, who is known in the West as the genius of Russian culture, Russian literature, spoke a lot about this, about the Russian soul.
After all, Western society is more realistic. Russians think more about the eternal, about moral values. I don’t know, maybe you don’t agree with me, but western culture is more realistic.
I’m not saying that this is bad, it allows today’s “golden billion” to achieve good results in production, also in science, etc. There is nothing wrong with this, I’m just saying that we look the same, but our minds are built a little differently.
Tucker Carlson: So you see the supernatural at work? When you look at what is happening in the world right now, do you see God at work? Have you ever thought about this: are these powers that are not human?
Vladimir Putin: No, frankly, I don’t think so. In my opinion, the development of the world community takes place according to its own laws, and these laws are what they are. This has always been the case in human history. Some nations and countries rose up, became stronger and more populous, then left the international scene and lost the status they had been accustomed to. I probably don’t need to give examples, but we could start with Genghis Khan and the conquerors of the Horde, the Golden Horde, and then finish with the Roman Empire.
It seems that there has never been anything like the Roman Empire in the history of mankind. Nevertheless, the potential of the barbarians gradually increased, as did their population. In general, the barbarians became stronger and began to develop economically, as we would say today. This eventually led to the collapse of the Roman Empire and the regime imposed by the Romans. However, it took five centuries for the Roman Empire to collapse. The difference with what is happening today is that all processes of change are much faster than in Roman times.
Tucker Carlson: When do you think the AI empire will begin?
Vladimir Putin: (laughs) You are asking more and more complex questions. To answer them, you need to be an expert in big numbers, big data and AI.
Humanity faces many threats today. Thanks to genetic research, it is now possible to create a superhuman, specialized human – a genetically modified athlete, scientist, soldier.
There are reports that Elon Musk has already implanted a chip in the human brain in the United States.
Tucker Carlson: What do you think?
Vladimir Putin: Well, I think Elon Musk is unstoppable, he will do what he thinks is right. However, you need to find common ground with him and look for ways to convince him. I think he’s a smart man, I really do. Therefore, you need to come to an agreement with him, because this process must be formalized and subject to certain rules.
Humanity has to think about what will happen due to the latest developments in genetics or artificial intelligence. You can roughly predict what will happen. When humanity felt an existential threat from nuclear weapons, all the nuclear nations began to compromise with each other, realizing that careless use of nuclear weapons could lead humanity to its own destruction.
It is as impossible to stop research into genetics or artificial intelligence today as it was to stop the use of gunpowder back then. But once we realize that the threat comes from the rampant and uncontrolled development of artificial intelligence, genetics or other fields, it will be time to reach an international agreement on how these things should be regulated.
Tucker Carlson: I appreciate your time. I just want to ask you one last question, and it’s about someone who is very famous in the United States, probably not here. Evan Gershkovich, a reporter for the Wall Street Journal, is 32 years old and has been in prison for almost a year. This is a big story in the United States, and I want to ask you directly, without going into the details of your version of events, if as a sign of your decency, you would be willing to release him to us and we will bring him back to the United States ;
Vladimir Putin: We have made so many goodwill gestures out of decency that, in my opinion, we no longer have any. We have never seen anyone reciprocate with us in such a way. In theory, however, we can say that we do not rule it out if our partners take appropriate measures.
When I talk about “partners”, I mean primarily special services. The special services are in contact with each other, discussing the respective issue. There is no taboo to solve the problem. We are ready to solve the problem, but there are some conditions that will be discussed through special service channels. I believe an agreement can be reached.
Tucker Carlson: Well, I mean, that’s usually been the case for centuries. A country captures another spy within its borders and trades him for one of its own intelligence officers in another country. I guess what it is, and it’s none of my business, but what makes it different is that this guy is obviously not a spy, he’s a kid and maybe he broke a law in some way, but he’s not a super spy and everyone knows that and he was detained hostage and exchanged. What is true, with respect, is true and everyone knows it to be true. So maybe they’re in a different category, maybe it’s not fair to ask someone else in return to leave them out. Perhaps it degrades Russia to do so.
Vladimir Putin: You know, you can interpret differently what constitutes a “spy”, but there are certain things that are determined by law. When a person obtains secret information and does so in a conspiratorial manner, it is called espionage. And that’s exactly what he did. He received secret, confidential information and did so in secret. Maybe he was involved, someone could drag him into it, maybe he did it out of carelessness or on his own initiative. Given the plain facts, this is espionage. The fact was proved as he was caught red-handed when he received this information. If it was a far-fetched excuse, a fake, something unproven, it would be a different story. But he was caught in the act when he secretly obtained confidential information. So what is it?
Tucker Carlson: But you mean he worked for the US government or NATO? Or was he just a journalist who was given material he shouldn’t have? These seem to be very different, very different things.
Vladimir Putin: I don’t know who he worked for. But I would like to emphasize once again that it is espionage when you secretly receive classified information and that he has worked for the PA intelligence community and some other agencies. I don’t think he worked for Monaco, as Monaco is not interested in receiving this information. It is up to the special services to come to an agreement. Some foundations have been laid. There are people who, in our opinion, are not connected to special services.
Let me tell you a story about a person who is serving a sentence in an allied country of the United States. This person, out of patriotic feelings, eliminated a robber in one of the European capitals. Do you know what [the bandit] did during the events in the Caucasus? I don’t want to say this, but I’ll do it anyway. He put our captured soldiers on the road and then drove his car over their heads. What kind of man is he? Can he even be called human? But there was a patriot who eliminated him in one of the European capitals. Whether or not he did it on his own initiative is another matter.
Tucker Carlson: Evan Gershkovich, this is a completely different, I mean, this is a 32-year-old newspaper reporter.
Vladimir Putin: He did something else.
Tucker Carlson: He’s just a reporter
Vladimir Putin: He is not just a journalist, I emphasize this again, he is a journalist who secretly obtained confidential information.
Yes, it’s different, but I’m still talking about other people who are basically being controlled by the US authorities, wherever they’re serving their sentences. There is a constant dialogue between the special services. This should be resolved calmly, responsibly and professionally. They stay in touch, so let them do their thing.
I do not rule out the possibility that the person you mentioned, Mr. Gershkovich, will return to his home country. After all, there is no point in keeping him in prison in Russia. We would like the intelligence services of the “PA” to think about how they can contribute to the achievement of the goals pursued by our special services. We are ready to talk. Moreover, the talks are ongoing and there have been many successful examples of these talks being crowned with success. It is possible that this too will be successful, but we will have to come to an agreement.
Tucker Carlson: I hope you let him. Mr. President, thank you very much.
Vladimir Putin: I too want him to finally return to his homeland. I am completely honest. But let me repeat: the dialogue continues. The more publicly we do such things, the harder it becomes to clear them up. Everything should be done calmly.
Tucker Carlson: I wonder if that’s the case with war, too. I mean, I guess I want to ask one more question: maybe you don’t want to say this for strategic reasons, but are you concerned about what’s going on? in Ukraine could lead to something much bigger and much scarier, and how motivated are you to call the US government and say, “Let’s make a deal”?
Vladimir Putin: I have already said that we did not refuse to talk. We are ready to negotiate. It is the western side and Ukraine is apparently a satellite state of the United States. This is obvious. I don’t want you to take this as me looking for a strong word or an insult, but we both understand what’s going on.
Financial support amounted to 72 billion dollars. Germany is in second place, followed by other European countries. Tens of billions of dollars go to Ukraine. There is a huge influx of weapons.
In this case, you should tell the current Ukrainian leadership to come to the negotiating table and repeal this absurd decree. We didn’t refuse.
Tucker Carlson: Well, sure, you’ve already said – I don’t think you meant it as an insult – because you’ve already said correctly, it’s been reported that Ukraine was blocked by the former British prime minister from negotiating a peace settlement. Secretary acting on behalf of the Biden administration. Of course, it is our satellite, big countries control small countries, this is nothing new. And that’s why I asked to work directly with the Biden administration, which is making these decisions, and not with Ukrainian President Zelensky.
Vladimir Putin: Well, if the Zelenskyi government refused to negotiate in Ukraine, I guess it did so on the instructions of Washington. If Washington thinks it’s the wrong decision, it should repudiate it, come up with a clever excuse so no one gets offended, and find a way out. We weren’t the ones who made that decision, they were, so let them reverse it once again. This is.
However, they made the wrong decision and now we have to look for a way out of this situation to correct their mistakes. They did, so they fixed it themselves. We support this.
Tucker Carlson: I just want to make sure I don’t misunderstand your statement – and I don’t think this is – I think you’re saying you want a negotiated solution to what’s going on in Ukraine.
Vladimir Putin: Right. And we did, we prepared a huge document in Istanbul, which was initialed by the head of the Ukrainian delegation. He has signed some of the provisions, but not all. He signed and then said himself: “We were ready to sign it and the war would have ended a long time ago, a year and a half ago.” But Prime Minister Johnson came along, advised us not to do it, and we lost that opportunity.” Well, you missed it, you made a mistake, let them go back to it, that’s it. Why do we need to bother correcting the mistakes of others?
I know, it can be said that it is our fault, it was us who made the situation worse and decided to end the war that started in 2014 in Donbas, as I said earlier, with weapons. Let me dive into the story a little more. I already told you, we just talked about it. Let’s go back to 1991, when we were promised not to expand NATO, to 2008, when the doors of NATO were opened, to the declaration of state sovereignty of Ukraine, in which Ukraine was declared a neutral state. Let’s go back to the fact that NATO and US military bases appeared on the territory of Ukraine, which posed a threat to us. Let’s go back to the coup in Ukraine in 2014. That’s pointless, isn’t it? We can go back and forth endlessly. But they broke off the negotiations. Is it a bug? Yes. Improve it. We are ready. What else is needed?
Tucker Carlson: Do you think it’s very humiliating at this point that NATO is accepting Russian control of what was Ukrainian territory two years ago?
Vladimir Putin: I told them to think about how to do it with dignity. There are options if there is a will.
So far, there has been clamor and clamor for inflicting a strategic defeat on Russia on the battlefield. Now they seem to realize that it is difficult, if possible, to achieve. In my opinion, it is by definition impossible, it will never happen. It seems to me that this has now also become clear to those in power in the West. If so, once awareness has begun, they need to think about what to do next. We are ready for this dialogue.
Tucker Carlson: Would you be willing to say, “Congratulations, NATO, you won?” And just leave the situation as it is now?
Vladimir Putin: You know, this is an issue for negotiations that nobody is ready for, or to put it more precisely, they are ready, but they don’t know how to do it. I know they want it. Not only do I see it, I know they want it, but they’re having a hard time figuring out how to do it. They got to the heart of the situation where we are. We didn’t do it, but our partners, our rivals, did. Now let them think about how they can turn the situation around. We are not opposed.
It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad. This endless mobilization in Ukraine, the hysteria, the internal political problems – sooner or later everything will lead to an agreement. You know, this will probably sound strange given the current situation, but relations between the two peoples are still being restored. It will take a long time, but they will heal.
I will give you very unusual examples. There is a war action on the battlefield, here is a specific example: Ukrainian soldiers were surrounded (this is a real example), our soldiers were shouting at them: “There is no chance!” Tradition! Get out and you’ll be alive!” Suddenly, from there, the Ukrainian soldiers shouted in Russian, perfect Russian: “The Russians do not surrender!” and all perished. They still identify themselves as Russians.
In a way, what is happening is an element of civil war. Everyone in the West believes that hostilities have divided the Russian people forever. No. They will be reunited. The section still exists.
Why are the Ukrainian authorities dissolving the Ukrainian Orthodox Church? Because it doesn’t just unite the region, it unites our souls. No one will be able to separate the soul.
Are we supposed to end here or is there something else?
Tucker Carlson: Thank you, Mr. President.
